Red Planet
Forum for the anti-capitalist left.

Home » Forum » News & Current Events » Influence of online communities
Show: Today's Messages :: Show Polls :: Message Navigator
Switch to threaded view of this topic Create a new topic Submit Reply
Influence of online communities [message #359] Tue, 19 March 2019 08:37 Go to next message
dalma
Messages: 30
Registered: January 2019
The NZ shooter lurked/posted on /pol/. How much are 4chan and 8ch to blame for radicalising these extremists?

People like to say that online communities have no effect on the real world. People laugh when /pol/yps say that they memed Trump into office. Internet is not the same as it was 20-30 years ago, when it was just another thing to visit in your life, like you visit the movie theatre or the internet cafe to play counter strike. Current generation of kids seems to be raised on the internet. Facebook has an age limit of 13 that isn't even enforced. They put iPads into schools and "computer and internet literacy" is being taught in primary schools. Kids spending too much time in front of a screen and the liberal media says parents should spend time with their kids, etc.

Quote:
The consensus is that screen time, in and of itself, is not harmful and reasonable restrictions vary greatly, depending on a child's behaviour and personality. There is little point in obsessing over how many minutes a day your kids are spending with screens. Instead, parents should be doing what they can to ensure that what they're watching, playing and reading is high-quality, age-appropriate and safe and joining in wherever possible.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/may/31/how-much- screen-time-is-too-much-for-kids-parents-advice-children-dig ital-media

Parents don't have time to monitor what their kids do, because most parents work. Today if people want to start a family both partners have to work full time. But I digress, that is a discussion for another thread. Parents cannot effectively monitor activities online, which results in kids having access to the internet and as young minds do absorb everything they see. You even have that girl child youtuber that is a white supremacist and has her own youtube show. I tried to find a link, but I use startpage, which uses Google and that is totally messing with my search results. It's actually infuriating.

Quote:
It's hard to fully judge how much screen time has increased in recent years. The closest study to Common Sense Media's may be the Kaiser Family Foundation's 2010 study, which estimated an average of five-and-a-half hours of media use for those ages 8-10, 8 hours and 40 minutes for those aged 11-14, and just under 8 hours for 15-18 year-olds.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2015/11/03 /teens-spend-nearly-nine-hours-every-day-consuming-media/

Capitalist educational system and capitalist media/entertainment have shortened attention spans and people expect information to be in easily-digestible bites. We pride ourselves on 'discussion', but a lot of people don't want 'discussion', they want to be entertained and reading Capital isn't really the kind of fun most people look for.

Why isn't the left as effective in "bringing people into the fold"? Are barriers of entry into leftist communities just too high? Do online leftists communities demand too much from new users? Demand that they've read a certain amount of theory, that they've already made up their mind on what sect they are? People aren't inherently capitalist, or racist, or nationalist, they learn to be that way. Why aren't we doing more to teach people? And how do we do more? Making more memes can't be the only option left to us. It is time to think creatively and out of the box, as they say.
Re: Influence of online communities [message #363 is a reply to message #359] Tue, 19 March 2019 15:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Purged
Messages: 115
Registered: January 2019
No, this is like making the argument that violent vidya makes people violent.
On one of hiss movies, can't recall which, Zizek explain that all desires are preexisting, people doesn't turn violent because of violent vidya but people with violent tendencies will naturally gravitate towards violent vidya.
Our concern should be how do we take these people out of the ideological coud of fascism?
Re: Influence of online communities [message #367 is a reply to message #363] Tue, 19 March 2019 23:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
anarchocyber
Messages: 33
Registered: January 2019
The power of online communities influences peoples idea's. Especially communities, I know a lot of people on /pol/ 8ch, etc think that most of them are only "ironic nazi's" until schools, churches, etc gets shot up. To most of these people who think "lol it's just a meme" don't understand how basic propaganda works. In this case, it has two uses. 1: The simple ability to find fellow travelers (people who have the same ideology and political goal) with the use of dog whistles 2: The ability to spread propaganda with the ability of plausible deniability.

Why are they so effective? Short answer, Small dedicated groups,
large collection of discord, matrix, irc chatrooms solely dedicated to the continued expanding of propaganda (think swarmfront did to /pol/'s ironic nazi's, and that's not including mainstream support of publications such as Esquire, fox's Tucker Carlson. Mainstreaming Nazi ideas to the public. It was done for Donald trump, La Pen, Brexit, etc. etc.

Why hasn't the left done it? My guess, lack of concrete will, and consensus.
Re: Influence of online communities [message #369 is a reply to message #367] Wed, 20 March 2019 00:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Karl
Messages: 87
Registered: January 2019
You're mistaken if you think the left can't pull big crowds. Back in 2001-2002 the old RevLeft board (then known as Che-Lives) had a massive community. Leftypol itself (despite being on a site owned and populated by right-wingers) grew from maybe 200 to over 1,600 before the board owner sabotaged everything.

The #1 factor that seems to prevent large leftist communities from forming is identity politics and related obsessions with moral purity. (I.e. reddit-faggotry that bans people for saying "dumb", "retarded," or "gay") A lot of the people who enforce these bullshit rules are, in fact, trust-fund kiddies and upper middle-class types who have nothing better to do than use social issues as a form of status-signalling.

[Updated on: Wed, 20 March 2019 00:30]

Report message to a moderator

Re: Influence of online communities [message #375 is a reply to message #363] Wed, 20 March 2019 08:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dalma
Messages: 30
Registered: January 2019
Purged
No, this is like making the argument that violent vidya makes people violent.
I agree. The question at the beginning may have been provocative. I don't actually believe online communities can make people do things, however, I think they can radicalise people who may have been violent from before.

Purged
On one of hiss movies, can't recall which, Zizek explain that all desires are preexisting, people doesn't turn violent because of violent vidya but people with violent tendencies will naturally gravitate towards violent vidya.
Our concern should be how do we take these people out of the ideological coud of fascism?
So people born in a liberal capitalist system will gravitate towards right-wing communities. A lot of it has to do with education. In school children aren't thought an objective view of history, or economics, or politics, communism/socialism is always the big evil that 'we' have had to fight against. And I have no answer how to break people out of fascism. Right-wing communities are also communities of friends, it is very hard to abandon an ideology where all your friends are, because then you'll be alone. Look at what people who leave the Mormon church experience, they get completely thrown out out of all social groups. Most people just want a sense of belonging.

anarchocyber
Why hasn't the left done it? My guess, lack of concrete will, and consensus.
Agreed. A lot of people on the left spend time making anti-Stalin, anti-ML, anti-anarchist material, engaging in sectarian fights. I still don't understand the sectarianism. All my life I have attempted to be good with everyone on the left, because for me capitalism must go, and I'd fight for whichever leftist system has the best chance of winning in that particular region/area/conditions. People take on their leftist orientation as an identity.

Karl
You're mistaken if you think the left can't pull big crowds.
I never said the left can't pull in big crowds. I remember Che-Lives. I'm saying that right now the left isn't pulling in big crowds and I'm wondering why.

Karl
The #1 factor that seems to prevent large leftist communities from forming is identity politics and related obsessions with moral purity.
There's that, but also a problem of advertising. Leftbook groups grow quickly because fb algorithm suggests groups to you based on likes and what pages you visit. 8ch/leftypol/ grew because 8ch itself got a lot of traffic through the other boards and in its inception it was advertised as an alternative to 4chan that was experiencing 'turmoil' at the time, with the selling of the site to Hiro, etc. It is much harder for independent communities to thrive. If 8ch continues to be blocked then maybe they come here.
Re: Influence of online communities [message #376 is a reply to message #359] Wed, 20 March 2019 16:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Karl
Messages: 87
Registered: January 2019
dalma
I'm saying that right now the left isn't pulling in big crowds and I'm wondering why.
My guess

- Hugbox effect. The internet has made people less likely to join diverse online communities. They'd rather be surrounded by people who think exactly like them.
- Idpol. The rise of identity politics (which only became "popular" immediately after Occupy Wall Street) tended to fracture communities along identity lines. ("You're a TERF if you don't want trans-women leading feminist groups.")
- Morality police. Related with identity politics is the obsession with moral purity. ("Did you make sexist remarks 10 years ago? You're kicked out of the group.")
- Bad leadership. Leftypol imploded because of one reason - the board owner. This wouldn't be such a problem if online communities were managed democratically but this idea hasn't been implemented anywhere outside 8chan's /netcom/ board and there wasn't enough activity to keep it going.

Leftypol during its growth phase was the opposite of all of that. The board was free enough that /pol/ users could debate, which led to some of them switching sides. There was no morality police like on reddit or twitter. The board was diverse in its views, there was no hugbox mentality.

[Updated on: Wed, 20 March 2019 16:04]

Report message to a moderator

Re: Influence of online communities [message #442 is a reply to message #376] Tue, 26 March 2019 22:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wes
Messages: 5
Registered: March 2019
Karl wrote on Wed, 20 March 2019 16:04
dalma
I'm saying that right now the left isn't pulling in big crowds and I'm wondering why.
My guess

- Hugbox effect. The internet has made people less likely to join diverse online communities. They'd rather be surrounded by people who think exactly like them.
- Idpol. The rise of identity politics (which only became "popular" immediately after Occupy Wall Street) tended to fracture communities along identity lines. ("You're a TERF if you don't want trans-women leading feminist groups.")
- Morality police. Related with identity politics is the obsession with moral purity. ("Did you make sexist remarks 10 years ago? You're kicked out of the group.")
- Bad leadership. Leftypol imploded because of one reason - the board owner. This wouldn't be such a problem if online communities were managed democratically but this idea hasn't been implemented anywhere outside 8chan's /netcom/ board and there wasn't enough activity to keep it going.

Leftypol during its growth phase was the opposite of all of that. The board was free enough that /pol/ users could debate, which led to some of them switching sides. There was no morality police like on reddit or twitter. The board was diverse in its views, there was no hugbox mentality.
Yeah this is why idpol is so destructive, a classice divide and conquer strategy.

Yeah that definaly has alot to do with why the real online-left has so much trouble, becuase we keep getting infltrated by these rainbow-haired rich brats that become moderators and evnetually shit left-spaces up with their own idiotic conspiritoral idpol that basically is the same crap the alt-right belives in only with WHite Men instead of "TEH J00Z!"

[Updated on: Tue, 26 March 2019 22:23]

Report message to a moderator

Re: Influence of online communities [message #454 is a reply to message #442] Wed, 27 March 2019 08:25 Go to previous message
dalma
Messages: 30
Registered: January 2019
Wes
evnetually shit left-spaces up with their own idiotic conspiritoral idpol that basically is the same crap the alt-right belives in only with WHite Men instead of "TEH J00Z!"
That is why class analysis is so important. It is the bourgeoisie that is exploiting workers. In some countries that bourgeoisie may have a lot of Jews in it, in some countries 'white' non-Jews, and in some countries could be mostly 'black' people or 'Asians'. What they all have in common is their relationship to the means of production, just like the proletariat that can be composed of people from different areas on the planet. The 'SJW' infiltration of leftist movements is done on purpose to break them up.
  Switch to threaded view of this topic Create a new topic Submit Reply
Previous Topic: Ibero american thread
Next Topic: Trump and the Wall
Goto Forum:
  

-=] Back to Top [=-
[ Syndicate this forum (XML) ] [ RSS ] [ PDF ]

Current Time: Mon Aug 19 22:54:41 UTC 2019

Total time taken to generate the page: 0.05515 seconds