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icon4.gif  Idpol on the left [message #127] Tue, 22 January 2019 11:44 Go to next message
Fulcrum
Messages: 7
Registered: January 2019
Location: UK
First off I think the biggest issue right now is inequality of wealth (and the means of attaining it). I think some rich peeps (and generally the right wing) use stuff like idpol, nationalism, classism (eg middle class vs working class), to distract and divide people from tackling the real issue (wealth distribution). This is ultimately a criticism of neoliberalism and it's application.

In the US (I'm UK but easier top discuss issue in relation to the USA since you had MLK) black peeps tend to live in poorer neighbourhoods (because of unarguably racist historic policies). It's nonsense to believe attitudes and applications of the law have changed in those few decades, racism still exists. Black people in poverty get treated worse, get longer prison sentences and are more likely to be sentences than white people in the same situation. That's hinting at systematic racism. Now this is a side point, showing how neoliberalism hasn't helped address racism.

Now the majority of this issue can be solved by wealth distribution, pump poor areas (black or white etc) with money, investment, good jobs, better schools. So there is a question, will that racism remain? We can't answer that because we do not have the necissary precondition of fairer distribution of wealth in the USA (and for that matter other nations).

People increasingly turned to idpol when they saw the system (with all it's promise of hope for progress) screwed them. The shift from the hopes of "great society", progress for civil rights (albeit still bad but it was better better, this shift marked the decline of Keynesian (with government spending, high taxes and regulation) to Neoliberalism and supply side economics.

In short people saw progress, got hope, then had it taken from then, stagnation, no improvement. They we're thrown under the bus. They didn't trust the economic system so they didn't believe they'd get fairer wealth distribution let alone socialism like MLK advocated for.

It's a loss of hope which has turned people to idpol, a loss of trust in economic systems and loss of allies who could once be relied on for positive change.

Ironically this plays into the hands of the right wing, they can foster it and feed it, to separate groups and destroy trust.

Now the real reason for this post was a criticism of behaviour I see here. Yall have, what looks like, a hatred of idpol and it's proponents. I saw a thread where people were saying don'y recruit from /r/ChapoTrapHouse and instead go to /r/stupidPol because of idpol? That's madness. We should be uniting and proving ourselves valuable allies and agents of change, not a spiteful subfaction which, at a glance, looks little different (idpol wise) from an alt-righter.

Aim to be open coz that sorta attitude will just turn people away.

Here is an article discussing left idpol

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/mar/01/how-americas-identit y-politics-went- from-inclusion-to-division

And here's an except
Quote:
In his most famous speech, Dr Martin Luther King Jr proclaimed: "When the architects of our republic wrote the magnificent words of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, they were signing a promissory note to which every American was to fall heir. This note was a promise that all men yes, black men as well as white men would be guaranteed the unalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."

King's ideals the ideals of the American Left that captured the imagination and hearts of the public and led to real change transcended group divides and called for an America in which skin color didn't matter.

Leading liberal philosophical movements of that era were similarly group blind and universalist in character. John Rawls's enormously influential A Theory of Justice, published in 1971, called on people to imagine themselves in an "original position", behind a "veil of ignorance", in which they could decide on their society's basic principles without regard to "race, gender, religious affiliation, [or] wealth".

At roughly the same time, the idea of universal human rights proliferated, advancing the dignity of every individual as the foundation of a just international order.

Thus, although the Left was always concerned with the oppression of minorities and the rights of disadvantaged groups, the dominant ideals in this period tended to be group blind, often cosmopolitan, with many calling for transcending not just ethnic, racial, and gender barriers but national boundaries as well.

Perhaps in reaction to Reaganism, and a growing awareness that "colorblindness" was being used by conservatives to oppose policies intended to redress racial inequities, a new movement began to unfold on the left in the 1980s and 1990s a movement emphasizing group consciousness, group identity, and group claims.
Bolded for empthesis by me. We got divided, and pushing those peeps away is only serving the right wing. Reach out to, what you deem to be idpol groups, maybe you can convince them there is another, more united, path to fairness.

[Updated on: Tue, 22 January 2019 11:49]

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Re: Idpol on the left [message #132 is a reply to message #127] Tue, 22 January 2019 17:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Purged
Messages: 115
Registered: January 2019
People turns to idpol because they think capitalism is fine and they want to validate it by having more minorities succeed. They think capitalism will be more fair once more whites work for blacks and similar stuff. They will never side with actual economic democracy and justice because they, the promoters of idpol are bourgeois themselves.
We should not just denounce idpol but also denounce the people behind it as well off motherfuckers.
Re: Idpol on the left [message #135 is a reply to message #127] Wed, 23 January 2019 08:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grabbag
Messages: 13
Registered: January 2019
Fulcrum wrote on Tue, 22 January 2019 11:44
We got divided, and pushing those peeps away is only serving the right wing.
Letting them associate with us is even worse. The biggest reason a lot of people start associating with the right is out of spite for left idpollers, who in turn associate with us out of spite for the right wing, creating a feedback loop that must be stopped.
Re: Idpol on the left [message #136 is a reply to message #127] Wed, 23 January 2019 13:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Durruti
Messages: 21
Registered: January 2019
Quote:
They will never side with actual economic democracy and justice because they, the promoters of idpol are bourgeois themselves.
This might be true for some of the most extreme idpolers, but the majority actually want a better world for everyone and idpol is the only alternative to the status quo they've ever seen. If we accept them into our club, we can easily show them how capitalism can never build the world they're dreaming of, and is in fact the cause of most of what they're fighting against.

We'll need to be very careful to make it clear we're against all the worst excesses of idpol though. It's suspiciously convenient to both porky and the new right that the only "leftism" to enter the public discourse is incoherent bullying flimflam. I think it's not enough to just dissasociate ourselves from that sort of thing, but actively attack it as harmful to the left (without getting too distracted by infighting to stand up to Capital). We might even win some converts that way too.
Re: Idpol on the left [message #137 is a reply to message #136] Wed, 23 January 2019 16:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Purged
Messages: 115
Registered: January 2019
The wordl they dream of is called the Obama administration.
For them a better world is more black and women CEOs and actual social and economic justice feel too dangerous to them.
Idpol is rightism and nothing else and we must push it rightwards.
Re: Idpol on the left [message #155 is a reply to message #135] Fri, 25 January 2019 15:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Fulcrum
Messages: 7
Registered: January 2019
Location: UK
grabbag wrote on Wed, 23 January 2019 08:48
Fulcrum wrote on Tue, 22 January 2019 11:44
We got divided, and pushing those peeps away is only serving the right wing.
Letting them associate with us is even worse. The biggest reason a lot of people start associating with the right is out of spite for left idpollers, who in turn associate with us out of spite for the right wing, creating a feedback loop that must be stopped.
Naw if they didn't have idpol to attack it'd be something else. They'd associate us with champagne socialists or hippies or those memey hipster barter stores or north korea (like they used to anyway).
They'll find anything and use it to divide us, by letting it divide us they're getting their way
Re: Idpol on the left [message #526 is a reply to message #155] Fri, 12 April 2019 13:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Socialist1917
Messages: 2
Registered: April 2019
We need to focus more on anti-white idpol.
Re: Idpol on the left [message #527 is a reply to message #526] Fri, 12 April 2019 18:43 Go to previous message
ted_burbclave
Messages: 23
Registered: March 2019
I don't think that is a big concern.
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